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	<title>Comments on: Getting Started With Investment Real Estate &#8211; Part 8</title>
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	<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/</link>
	<description>Investing and Personal Finance</description>
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		<title>By: uberben</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-17313</link>
		<dc:creator>uberben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 20:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-17313</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the response. Like I said, I hadn&#039;t put much research into it yet but I had a feeling there was going to be something wrong with that strategy. When I get more serious about implementing a SM and/or getting a rental property I&#039;ll do some real number crunching and see just how bad this &quot;Daisy Smith&quot; Manoeuver may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the response. Like I said, I hadn&#8217;t put much research into it yet but I had a feeling there was going to be something wrong with that strategy. When I get more serious about implementing a SM and/or getting a rental property I&#8217;ll do some real number crunching and see just how bad this &#8220;Daisy Smith&#8221; Manoeuver may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Four Pillars</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-17309</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Pillars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 20:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-17309</guid>
		<description>Well, now all you have to do is copy and paste!!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, now all you have to do is copy and paste!!  <img src='http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Cheap</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-17304</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Cheap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 19:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-17304</guid>
		<description>Mike:   Half way through I thought &quot;I should have just written a post...&quot; ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike:   Half way through I thought &#8220;I should have just written a post&#8230;&#8221; <img src='http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Four Pillars</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-17303</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Pillars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 19:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-17303</guid>
		<description>This sounds like a post...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sounds like a post&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Cheap</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-17301</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Cheap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 19:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-17301</guid>
		<description>Ben:  At it&#039;s core, the SM is simply built on the idea that interest paid on debts used to invest is tax deductible, while interest paid on debts NOT used to invest isn&#039;t.  This is a core part of Canadian taxation, and doesn&#039;t have anything specifically to do with Fraser Smith, he just uses this concept (along with segregated funds) to turn a non-deductible mortgage into deductible debt.

A similar way to do the same thing would be with a rental property (which is NOT the Smith Maneuver).  Say I had a mortgage on my principle residence, and bought an investment property that was breaking even (lets say it cost me $1300 / month and I collected $1300 / month in rent).  Let&#039;s say I have a $100,000 4% interest-only mortgage and I&#039;m paying $334 / month on it (the interest) and I can afford to pay this every month.

First I get a HELOC on my principle residence (I could get it on the investment property, but if the expense equals the income it probably doesn&#039;t have the equity, plus it&#039;s easier to get a HELOC on a principle residence).  Say the HELOC is 6%.

 Each month I pay my principle residence mortgage payment from my income and that&#039;s taken care of.  Then I also put down an extra payment of $1300 (from the rental income) of the mortgage on my principle residence.  Doing so creates $1300 of extra room in the HELOC.  I pay for the $1300 in rental expenses from the HELOC, and the interest on this $1300 debt is now tax deductible, since I borrowed it to pay for investment expenses.  (along with any amount on the HELOC which was used to make the down payment on the property and to pay for transactions fees, such as a lawyer, RELATED TO THE PURCHASE OF THAT PROPERTY).

I still have to pay tax on the $1300 in rent (it&#039;s income).  I&#039;m also converting a 4% loan into a 6% loan.  Even if it&#039;s tax deductible, that doesn&#039;t seem like the smartest idea in the world.  Additionally, if my mortgage in fixed rate, I&#039;m trading the certainty of my payments for the variable rate of a HELOC.

Ultimately, once my mortgage on my principle residence is paid off (after 76 months, or 6.5 years if we ignore the increasing interest on the HELOC and the decreasing interest on the principle residence mortgage) I can, of course, get a new, tax deductible mortgage to replace the HELOC.  This process would be accelerated if there was more than one investment property (or if the income / expenses of the rental property was higher).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben:  At it&#8217;s core, the SM is simply built on the idea that interest paid on debts used to invest is tax deductible, while interest paid on debts NOT used to invest isn&#8217;t.  This is a core part of Canadian taxation, and doesn&#8217;t have anything specifically to do with Fraser Smith, he just uses this concept (along with segregated funds) to turn a non-deductible mortgage into deductible debt.</p>
<p>A similar way to do the same thing would be with a rental property (which is NOT the Smith Maneuver).  Say I had a mortgage on my principle residence, and bought an investment property that was breaking even (lets say it cost me $1300 / month and I collected $1300 / month in rent).  Let&#8217;s say I have a $100,000 4% interest-only mortgage and I&#8217;m paying $334 / month on it (the interest) and I can afford to pay this every month.</p>
<p>First I get a HELOC on my principle residence (I could get it on the investment property, but if the expense equals the income it probably doesn&#8217;t have the equity, plus it&#8217;s easier to get a HELOC on a principle residence).  Say the HELOC is 6%.</p>
<p> Each month I pay my principle residence mortgage payment from my income and that&#8217;s taken care of.  Then I also put down an extra payment of $1300 (from the rental income) of the mortgage on my principle residence.  Doing so creates $1300 of extra room in the HELOC.  I pay for the $1300 in rental expenses from the HELOC, and the interest on this $1300 debt is now tax deductible, since I borrowed it to pay for investment expenses.  (along with any amount on the HELOC which was used to make the down payment on the property and to pay for transactions fees, such as a lawyer, RELATED TO THE PURCHASE OF THAT PROPERTY).</p>
<p>I still have to pay tax on the $1300 in rent (it&#8217;s income).  I&#8217;m also converting a 4% loan into a 6% loan.  Even if it&#8217;s tax deductible, that doesn&#8217;t seem like the smartest idea in the world.  Additionally, if my mortgage in fixed rate, I&#8217;m trading the certainty of my payments for the variable rate of a HELOC.</p>
<p>Ultimately, once my mortgage on my principle residence is paid off (after 76 months, or 6.5 years if we ignore the increasing interest on the HELOC and the decreasing interest on the principle residence mortgage) I can, of course, get a new, tax deductible mortgage to replace the HELOC.  This process would be accelerated if there was more than one investment property (or if the income / expenses of the rental property was higher).</p>
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		<title>By: uberben</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-17286</link>
		<dc:creator>uberben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 18:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-17286</guid>
		<description>Great article(s), Mr. Cheap. I predict rental properties in my future. I have been thinking about implementing a Smith Manoeuvre when I purchase a home for myself and, from my understanding, the HELOC would be tax deductible if invested in rental properties. That got me thinking: could you effectively daisy chain SMs so that as you pay off your primary mortgage, the new HELOC room could be put into a rental property which also has a SM implemented? I believe the equity in the home is 75% purchase price - mortgage principal remaining, so you would need to invest the HELOC elsewhere until you have 20-25% down on the rental property. At that point, get the next mortgage + SM and invest that HELOC until you can get another rental. This system would probably work best if the initial property had a fairly high value and successive rental&#039;s were priced lower and lower as that would mean saving for less time to get the down payment. I haven&#039;t done huge amounts of research into rentals or the SM as I am probably still a year or two away from diving in, but I am trying to get a bit of a jump start by mulling over ideas. Can you see any problems/flaws with my idea?

Ben</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article(s), Mr. Cheap. I predict rental properties in my future. I have been thinking about implementing a Smith Manoeuvre when I purchase a home for myself and, from my understanding, the HELOC would be tax deductible if invested in rental properties. That got me thinking: could you effectively daisy chain SMs so that as you pay off your primary mortgage, the new HELOC room could be put into a rental property which also has a SM implemented? I believe the equity in the home is 75% purchase price &#8211; mortgage principal remaining, so you would need to invest the HELOC elsewhere until you have 20-25% down on the rental property. At that point, get the next mortgage + SM and invest that HELOC until you can get another rental. This system would probably work best if the initial property had a fairly high value and successive rental&#8217;s were priced lower and lower as that would mean saving for less time to get the down payment. I haven&#8217;t done huge amounts of research into rentals or the SM as I am probably still a year or two away from diving in, but I am trying to get a bit of a jump start by mulling over ideas. Can you see any problems/flaws with my idea?</p>
<p>Ben</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Cheap</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-14518</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Cheap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 13:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-14518</guid>
		<description>JT:  You&#039;re right about the cash flow definition.  I always objected to including the principle portion of the payment, since that&#039;s money you get back when you sell.  Imagine two mortgages had identical interest rates, and one was interest only, while the other was on an amortization schedule.  According to the def&#039;n of cash flow, one would be positive and the other would be negative, which doesn&#039;t make sense to me.  

That being said, I certainly shouldn&#039;t use my own definitions of terms without clarifying, thanks for catching me!

THAT being said, I *THINK* I&#039;m still cash flow positive.  At the beginning of my investment (when I wrote this), most of my mortgage payments were going to interest.  I was paying about $500 / month, 400 going to interest, 100 going to principle, so I&#039;d still be $150 cash flow positive.

To be TOTALLY FAIR, I now agree with the Canadian Capitalist that vacancies and maintenance should be included with the calculations, which would make me about break even.

To be even MORE FAIR, I put a larger than standard down payment.  For a cash flow positive property to be at all impressive, it should be purchased with a standard down payment (20%).  Anyone can just pour more money into a property until it&#039;s cash flow positive (I did it to get a loan when I was self-employed).

Thanks for a comment on an older post, your kind words and for clarifying cash flow!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JT:  You&#8217;re right about the cash flow definition.  I always objected to including the principle portion of the payment, since that&#8217;s money you get back when you sell.  Imagine two mortgages had identical interest rates, and one was interest only, while the other was on an amortization schedule.  According to the def&#8217;n of cash flow, one would be positive and the other would be negative, which doesn&#8217;t make sense to me.  </p>
<p>That being said, I certainly shouldn&#8217;t use my own definitions of terms without clarifying, thanks for catching me!</p>
<p>THAT being said, I *THINK* I&#8217;m still cash flow positive.  At the beginning of my investment (when I wrote this), most of my mortgage payments were going to interest.  I was paying about $500 / month, 400 going to interest, 100 going to principle, so I&#8217;d still be $150 cash flow positive.</p>
<p>To be TOTALLY FAIR, I now agree with the Canadian Capitalist that vacancies and maintenance should be included with the calculations, which would make me about break even.</p>
<p>To be even MORE FAIR, I put a larger than standard down payment.  For a cash flow positive property to be at all impressive, it should be purchased with a standard down payment (20%).  Anyone can just pour more money into a property until it&#8217;s cash flow positive (I did it to get a loan when I was self-employed).</p>
<p>Thanks for a comment on an older post, your kind words and for clarifying cash flow!</p>
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		<title>By: JT</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-14486</link>
		<dc:creator>JT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 17:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-14486</guid>
		<description>This was a great and very informative article.  Just one little thing though...I believe you&#039;re using the term &#039;cash flow&#039; incorrectly.   What you&#039;re calling &#039;cash flow&#039; is probably closer to net income.  

Given your numbers, I suspect you&#039;re cash flow is negative as cash flow should include all cash outflows (i.e. mortgage interest AND principal, condo fees, property taxes, etc.) and all inflows (i.e. rent).   I think you left out the mortage principal from your calculations.

In the end...as long as you&#039;re showing a positive net income , you&#039;re doing well and building wealth though (assuming property values aren&#039;t depreciating dramatically).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a great and very informative article.  Just one little thing though&#8230;I believe you&#8217;re using the term &#8216;cash flow&#8217; incorrectly.   What you&#8217;re calling &#8216;cash flow&#8217; is probably closer to net income.  </p>
<p>Given your numbers, I suspect you&#8217;re cash flow is negative as cash flow should include all cash outflows (i.e. mortgage interest AND principal, condo fees, property taxes, etc.) and all inflows (i.e. rent).   I think you left out the mortage principal from your calculations.</p>
<p>In the end&#8230;as long as you&#8217;re showing a positive net income , you&#8217;re doing well and building wealth though (assuming property values aren&#8217;t depreciating dramatically).</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/comment-page-1/#comment-9698</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moneysmartsblog.com/getting-started-with-investment-real-estate-part-8/#comment-9698</guid>
		<description>Have you bought more investment property since then?  I&#039;d like to know what area of Toronto you got that deal in.....those numbers are pretty good for Toronto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you bought more investment property since then?  I&#8217;d like to know what area of Toronto you got that deal in&#8230;..those numbers are pretty good for Toronto.</p>
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